Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard

Gnome default setup when Xorg keyboard is "fr"/"oss" leads to the "France Alternative" layout.

In this layout some application can't handle space caracter properly.
(See URL as some exemples).

Workaround is to force "France Alternative, latin9 only" in Gnome

or

change Xorg.conf replacing :

Option "XkbVariant" "oss"
by
Option "XkbVariant" "latin9"

Created attachment 16310
xorg.conf

First of all, GNOME represents whatever is in base.xml. There is default French layout and several variants (including "oss" and "oss_latin9"). User choses whatever he wants. So I am not really sure what is the essence of your complain.

Okay, your "vote" is currently happening on

https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881

with 4 new entries today (from different people), 100% of them saying :

« PLEASE GIVE US OUR RIGHT [CTRL] KEY BEHAVING AS A [CTRL] KEY BACK !!! »

To summarize further, AFAIK, there is ONE person in the world happy that the french right [CTRL] has been broke, 100% of the other french keyboard users who want their [CTRL] key back,...

...and the rest of the world doesn't use a french keyboard and doesn't care.

Yes, please give it back !
Moreover I got two "Super" keys (with windows logo), why my right Super is also broken ? Is it the same problem as Ctrl ?

Nicolas, I understand the logic in your position about Level 5. But I see a number of unhappy people. Could we find some other level5 chooser?

Before searching a level5 chooser, please, a quick fix!

2014-05-02 0:59 GMT+02:00 Sergey V. Udaltsov <email address hidden>:

> Nicolas, I understand the logic in your position about Level 5. But I
> see a number of unhappy people. Could we find some other level5 chooser?
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881
>
> Title:
> Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions
>

(In reply to comment #66)

> Regarding the voting, is there generic popular Linux-oriented site in
> France? Like slashdot.org or smth...

There is a popular Linux-oriented site in France (linuxfr.org) and the final ajustments of this layout were done after discussion on this site.

I realise there is a vocal minority that does not like some of those choices but
1. the other alternatives used in the ancestors of this layout generated a lot more hate mail
2. because I knew there was no choice everyone would like spacebar layout is modular (and I'm the person who modularized it as part of the creation of this layout). People can choose the previous behaviour if they want and a few other possibilities were added as part of the modularization
3. so far no one proposed any better option appart from removing symbols which are necessary to write proper French (arguably proper French is not the same as C code). It's a lot easier to clamor for removal of the bits you do not use than to try to design a general-purpose solution without cutting corners

(In reply to comment #69)
…
> > Regarding the voting, is there generic popular Linux-oriented site in
> > France? Like slashdot.org or smth...
>
> There is a popular Linux-oriented site in France (linuxfr.org) and the
> final ajustments of this layout were done after discussion on this site.
>
> I realise there is a vocal minority that does not like some of those choices

A site like linuxfr.org may well be a vocal minority in itself. Nothing proves that linuxfr.org is representative of ordinary users. And even on linuxfr.org I have seen posts saying "where is my CRTL-R gone?" or "my keyboard is broken since some new version of Ubuntu".
In a way, suppressing one of the customary CTRL keys is intrinsically a minority point of view.
[Furthermore, the French layout for the Belgian keyboard depends on the French layout for the French keyboard. I do not see why a discussion on linuxfr.org should decide that Belgians have no use of right CTRL.]

> but
> 1. the other alternatives used in the ancestors of this layout generated a
> lot more hate mail

I doubt having a right CTRL key ever generated hate mail. That hate mail was about other questions.

> 2. because I knew there was no choice everyone would like spacebar layout is
> modular (and I'm the person who modularized it as part of the creation of
> this layout). People can choose the previous behaviour if they want and a
> few other possibilities were added as part of the modularization

We are not here discussing space bar, but right CTRL. Is right CTRL modular? Is there an option easily accessible to the ordinary user to restore right CTRL?

> 3. so far no one proposed any better option appart from removing symbols
> which are necessary to write proper French (arguably proper French is not
> the same as C code). It's a lot easier to clamor for removal of the bits you
> do not use than to try to design a general-purpose solution without cutting
> corners

The clamor is not against proper French of for removal of anything. Furthermore, how could an ordinary user "try to design a solution"? The user wants a common PC keyboard with CTRL keys, without having to write the code himself. The clamor is: do what you can to allow writing proper French —and thank you for your trying to do it— but leave the right CTRL.
-------
If no agreement can be reached, would it be possible to have the old layout accessible, even under another name? I do not know how many variants are allowed, by design, or by freedesktop conventions. Of course a new variant would be useless if it didn’t appear in the choices offered to an ordinary user by the most popular GNU Linux distributions.

(In reply to comment #69)
> (In reply to comment #66)
>
> > Regarding the voting, is there generic popular Linux-oriented site in
> > France? Like slashdot.org or smth...
>
> There is a popular Linux-oriented site in France (linuxfr.org) and the
> final ajustments of this layout were done after discussion on this site.

But this has the same pitfall as any volunteered survey, it isn't any kind of representative. I for example myself barely ever read a linuxfr article, and wouldn't participate or even see a survey there. That doesn't mean I'm not a French fr/oss user :)

Also note that people suffering from the situations are a lot more likely to do something and speak their mind than people perfectly happy with the situation. So probably "discussing" a problem is likely to only include opinion from people not happy with the current state, and people closely involved.

> I realise there is a vocal minority that does not like some of those choices
> but

Just to be fair, I see *no one* else here arguing towards keeping right Ctrl Level5 modifier -- but sure, as I state above, people happy with it won't see the discussion or care, so it may be biased.

> 1. the other alternatives used in the ancestors of this layout generated a
> lot more hate mail

If it broke people's apps (or apps broke with it, I don't care who's fault it is), I surely can understand people being angry. But similarly, since the change from this report broke people's right Ctrl key, I can understand they get angry.

> 2. because I knew there was no choice everyone would like spacebar layout is
> modular (and I'm the person who modularized it as part of the creation of
> this layout). People can choose the previous behaviour if they want and a
> few other possibilities were added as part of the modularization

And we thank you for your work. But I don't think it's realistic to think everyone can "choose the previous behavior" if it means editing the keymap. I already said it, but it took me quite some time to find what caused my right Ctrl key to no longer work and fix it, and I think it's fair to consider myself a quite advanced user.

If really reverting the addition of Level5 is not an option (but see below), please add an alternative layout.

> 3. so far no one proposed any better option appart from removing symbols
> which are necessary to write proper French (arguably proper French is not
> the same as C code).

The change in this particular report did not add or remove any symbol, it only moved one to Level5 because some apps couldn't handle <Ctrl>Space with this layout. And as I said earlier, most of the incriminated apps (at least that I know of) don't even use <Ctrl>Space anymore, rendering the change moot for them.

And even if we wanted to please those apps, we mayb be able to without adding a new modifier (Level5) and a key for it -- again, see (comment #46).

Also note that event though I admittedly don't use short-nbsp (I'm afraid I don't know the rules where this one should be used in French typography), I'm an heavy user of nbsp everywhere French typography tells me to do it. So no, I don't want to remove anything, don't worry -- but I'd like my rig...

(In reply to comment #70)

> If no agreement can be reached, would it be possible to have the old layout
> accessible, even under another name?

The old layout was never removed and kept its historical name (fr latin9)

(In reply to comment #72)
> The old layout was never removed and kept its historical name (fr latin9)

No, we are speaking here of fr/oss, but before it got right Ctrl as level5 modifier (what this bug end up changing).

I bet everyone complaining here was very happy with fr/oss before this Level5 modifier -- at least I was, this map has so everything useful (and more) on handy locations :)

(In reply to comment #71)

> And even if we wanted to please those apps, we mayb be able to without
> adding a new modifier (Level5) and a key for it -- again, see (comment #46).

I'm pretty sure some of the other spacebar configurations available as xkb options do not require level5. They are not the default for fr(oss) because without level5 it is too easy to type a nbspc by mistake and random nbspc everywhere breaks lots of things (as reported by fr latin9 users).

Nicolas,

Where does the need to *have* a key for nbsp come from? Isn't a compose combo more appropriate and less error-prone?

Cheers

(In reply to comment #75)
> Nicolas,
>
> Where does the need to *have* a key for nbsp come from?

Because unlike in English most French punctuation symbols require a space (sometimes a short space) before. And if it's not a non-breakable space apps will perform line breaks at the wrong position and you'll end up with orphan sumbols at line starts

Online
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_ins%C3%A9cable

Actual authoritative reverence (highly recommended if you want to work on any system with French inputs or outputs)
http://www.amazon.fr/Lexique-r%C3%A8gles-typographiques-lImprimerie-Nationale/dp/2743304820

Lack of non breakspace on French layouts on some OSes is such a basic problem OpenOffice/LibreOffice had to hardcode a nbspc combo but that does not help when writing in you MUA, your browser, your IM client, etc

> Isn't a compose
> combo more appropriate and less error-prone?

Compose is not appropriate for basic symbols you need to write pretty much any correct sentence in the target language. And adding a specific input method for one symbol just because some people can't live with the modifier ISO chose for level 5 is disproportionnate.

(In reply to comment #76)
> Compose is not appropriate for basic symbols you need to write pretty much
> any correct sentence in the target language. And adding a specific input
> method for one symbol just because some people can't live with the modifier
> ISO chose for level 5 is disproportionnate.

Woow, calm down guys. What's disproportionate is the reaction here! *before* the change this report introduced, and which many of us are trying to get reverted, *both* nbsp and nbspc were easily available:

nbsp AltGr+Shift+Space
nbspc Ctrl+Shift+Space

Reverting the change this report introduced would get this behavior. Please understand we just want to get nbspc moved back where it *was* (or for me, anywhere on a 1-4 level), not removed or anything. Also, realize that currently there is only *one* Level5-specific symbol, and that's nbspc, so we basically have a key only for that.

However, for most French people, standard Right-Ctrl key is more important
than Nbsp.
Especially for left-handed people who use left hand for the mouse and most
letters, and right hand for Shift, Ctrl and AltGr. A notable exception is
Alt which only exists on the left.

Anyway, it's written Ctrl on the Right-Ctrl, so it MUST behave as a Ctrl.

Put nbsp where you want, but give us back the Right-Ctrl.

2014-05-07 11:41 GMT+02:00 Nicolas-mailhot-laposte <
<email address hidden>>:

> (In reply to comment #75)
> > Nicolas,
> >
> > Where does the need to *have* a key for nbsp come from?
>
> Because unlike in English most French punctuation symbols require a
> space (sometimes a short space) before. And if it's not a non-breakable
> space apps will perform line breaks at the wrong position and you'll end
> up with orphan sumbols at line starts
>
> Online
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_ins%C3%A9cable
>
> Actual authoritative reverence (highly recommended if you want to work on
> any system with French inputs or outputs)
>
> http://www.amazon.fr/Lexique-r%C3%A8gles-typographiques-lImprimerie-Nationale/dp/2743304820
>
> Lack of non breakspace on French layouts on some OSes is such a basic
> problem OpenOffice/LibreOffice had to hardcode a nbspc combo but that
> does not help when writing in you MUA, your browser, your IM client, etc
>
> > Isn't a compose
> > combo more appropriate and less error-prone?
>
> Compose is not appropriate for basic symbols you need to write pretty
> much any correct sentence in the target language. And adding a specific
> input method for one symbol just because some people can't live with the
> modifier ISO chose for level 5 is disproportionnate.
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881
>
> Title:
> Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions
>

What if nbsp is accessible using AltGr+Space or AltGt+Shift+Space ?

2014-05-07 14:00 GMT+02:00 Emmanuel Castro <email address hidden>:

> However, for most French people, standard Right-Ctrl key is more
> important than Nbsp.
> Especially for left-handed people who use left hand for the mouse and most
> letters, and right hand for Shift, Ctrl and AltGr. A notable exception is
> Alt which only exists on the left.
>
> Anyway, it's written Ctrl on the Right-Ctrl, so it MUST behave as a Ctrl.
>
> Put nbsp where you want, but give us back the Right-Ctrl.
>
>
> 2014-05-07 11:41 GMT+02:00 Nicolas-mailhot-laposte <
> <email address hidden>>:
>
> (In reply to comment #75)
>> > Nicolas,
>> >
>> > Where does the need to *have* a key for nbsp come from?
>>
>> Because unlike in English most French punctuation symbols require a
>> space (sometimes a short space) before. And if it's not a non-breakable
>> space apps will perform line breaks at the wrong position and you'll end
>> up with orphan sumbols at line starts
>>
>> Online
>> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espace_ins%C3%A9cable
>>
>> Actual authoritative reverence (highly recommended if you want to work on
>> any system with French inputs or outputs)
>>
>> http://www.amazon.fr/Lexique-r%C3%A8gles-typographiques-lImprimerie-Nationale/dp/2743304820
>>
>> Lack of non breakspace on French layouts on some OSes is such a basic
>> problem OpenOffice/LibreOffice had to hardcode a nbspc combo but that
>> does not help when writing in you MUA, your browser, your IM client, etc
>>
>> > Isn't a compose
>> > combo more appropriate and less error-prone?
>>
>> Compose is not appropriate for basic symbols you need to write pretty
>> much any correct sentence in the target language. And adding a specific
>> input method for one symbol just because some people can't live with the
>> modifier ISO chose for level 5 is disproportionnate.
>>
>> --
>> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
>> report.
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881
>>
>> Title:
>> Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard
>>
>> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions
>>
>
>

I'm at a loss as to what to do to help find a solution for everyone.

fr-oss is a great layout with many useful improvements over fr-latin9, but the missing ControlR is a deal breaker. I'm personally back to using the default "fr" layout and I'll advise users to do the same if they want their ControlR back.

@Ubuntu users listening in through Launchpad: use whatever control panel you have to select a layout that doesn't have the words "Alternative" or "variante".

Cheers

Created attachment 98826
Make Level 5 choosers more easily available

The patch makes existing options for Level 5 choosers more easily available by adding them to the rules. This is useful in its own right, irrespective of this bug. In context of this ongoing discussion, it would allow to change back to the old default, and allow users who prefer the current behaviour to use the options lv5:rctrl_switch and nbsp:level4n to get their preferred behaviour.

About a "short nbsp" in french, let's make it perfectly clear that there must be about a hundred professionnal typographists in the whole country who care about it - most of them not using Linux BTW - and the rest of the ~40 million computer users here don't give a shit about a "short nbsp" and don't even know what it is, feel perfectly happy with the "correct french" they write without it, and many of them just would like their fscking right [Ctrl] key back.

If a so thin minority of professional typographists that in no way represent the average french "Joe" user want this modifier, it's perfectly OK that they devise their own special layout for their on needs, but by no means impose it on the rest of us.

You're kidding ! In France, professional typographists use Macintosh, I
fear. And the average French user is not "Joe", he's "Jean".

And I'll write unconstructive sarcasms until I get my Right-Ctrl back ! (Do
note the French style space before the exclamation marks)
Le 12 mai 2014 07:10, "Swâmi Petaramesh" <email address hidden> a
écrit :

> About a "short nbsp" in french, let's make it perfectly clear that there
> must be about a hundred professionnal typographists in the whole country
> who care about it - most of them not using Linux BTW - and the rest of
> the ~40 million computer users here don't give a shit about a "short
> nbsp" and don't even know what it is, feel perfectly happy with the
> "correct french" they write without it, and many of them just would like
> their fscking right [Ctrl] key back.
>
> If a so thin minority of professional typographists that in no way
> represent the average french "Joe" user want this modifier, it's
> perfectly OK that they devise their own special layout for their on
> needs, but by no means impose it on the rest of us.
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881
>
> Title:
> Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions
>

BTW, about the punctuation signs that, in French, requires a nbsp before them, i.e. " ; : ! ? " (for perfect typographic correctness, while usually few people know about this and nobody really cares...) :

Usual word processing programs, such as OpenOffice / LibreOffice, when configured to the french locale, add these typographically required nbsps automagically, so people actually do not have to type the nbsp, which makes the need for an easy entry of these still less of an issue.

Should we follow the slope of stealing a useful right [Ctrl] key for this, then me might well in the future steal the left one for the dash " - ", as in french, we typographically use at least 3 different lenghts for dashes. As previously, word processing software usually transforms the "normal dash" into the "typographically correct dash"... Nope, all this mess of quite complex and unusual characters is the very reason for which meta and compose keys exist in the first place...

Swâmi,

We've all laid out these arguments many times over. Yes, this issue is frustrating (and I regret having vented some of my own frustration in my first comments) but let's keep it civil.

There are proposed solutions. I, for one, think Andreas' proposal is the best way out of the current dead lock as it would allow each and everyone of us to configure the fr-oss layout the way we want it. It's now up to Sergey and Nicolas to decide how to move this forward.

Cheers

I too believe that Andreas' proposal is the right one. It permits people who really want the extra 5th level to be able to easily get it, while not breaking the 99% usual usage.

Just for the record, I had not seen the linuxfr discussion. I guess mostly only people who would want the extra 5th level did realize that it would steal the right control key. If a discussion happened on "are people fine with making the right control key the 5th level modifier by *default*", the result would be quite different, I believe.

At the risk of just making things worse ...

My €0.02 is that we should stick with level 5 right Control as being optional. This is a marginal (in terms of percentage of userbase that will ever see/use it) layout that people have to go out of their way to use, but still taking away a modifier is a pretty big and surprising step.

I've got sympathy with the non-breaking-space thing from a strict technical correctness point of view, however it just can't be essential for day-to-day usage if Windows requires you to enter it by the Unicode codepoint. If such a large percentage of the French-speaking world cope with it, then so can we.

I think Andreas's proposal is the only sensible one. Some people won't be happy with it, but if this discussion (and that of Bépo) has shown us anything, it's that you really can't please anyone when dealing with alternate French keyboard layouts.

FWIW after user complaints I've reverted this change in Debian's xkeyboard-config, to have right control behave normally again.

ok, Daniel and Julien put last two nails into that coffin. I removed right control as level5 modifier in git. Thank you everybody. Really sorry there is no perfect solution here...

the fix looks like it'll reintroduce some form of #9529? or was the use of level4n instead of level4nl intentional?