KDE4 should not be standard in 8.04 LTS

I just want to add my support to this for whatever it is worth. I would even suggest branching Kubuntu in a KDE4 "flavor" and a stable KDE 3.5 distro instead of messing with the well working and stable Kubuntu I use.

Kubuntu 8.04 will not be LTS anyway

I also would like KDE 3 as a standard. After seeing KDE 4's inabilities I don't think its ready for prime time. Not only that, but its foolish to have Ubuntu at LTS level and Kubuntu not. Keep the 3.5.8 as the default, and make KDE 4 and "also can do" option in the installer.

As Canonical made the decision to not have a *Kubuntu* LTS version for 8.04, and that there will be choice (if I understand correctly) of either version of KDE in Hardy, this is a rather moot subject.

Even if Kubuntu 8.04 is not LTS, KDE 4.0 is not production ready. So say the KDE devs.

Why was this marked invalid? If it is because of the LTS misstatement, than that is not good enough reason to invalidate the bug. Rather, it is good reason to simply change the bug's title. I will revalidate the bug, unless good argument could be made for it being invalid.

Kubuntu will NOT be LTS anyway, with or without KDE 3 or KDE 4. Why? Canonical says so.

Why not have KDE 3? Because the majority of KDE developers are right now developing the new and exciting technologies of KDE 4! Will there be KDE developers working on KDE 3 in three years time with updates and bug fixes? I don't think so. And the Kubuntu team is not big enough to maintain a KDE 3 and 4 version at the same time.

Now, because the KDE developers have switched to KDE 4, what should the Kubuntu (which is, of course a KDE Linux distro) developers do? When in Rome, do as the Romans do, switch to KDE 4. Which is what we have planned and heavily under development.

OK, KDE 4 may not be production ready (personally I love it), but one does have the option of using KDE 3 in Hardy/Gutsy (upgrading from Gutsy will keep KDE 3), or you can use KDE 4 (the dream and future) and help us make the future releases of it roK, by submitting all bugs you find making KDE 4.x a better and more solid DE - and thus, helping out Kubuntu tremendously.

All this will in turn, help make future releases of Kubuntu better too and the next LTS (whenever it will be) be stable, powerful and just great. What we are doing is, I think, a great favour to the KDE team.

I of course want KDE4 to be great and all that BUT I have a number of production machines with reasonably happy users and the last thing I want is to put them in an untested and/or buggy environment. That said, I still want to be able to upgrade or do fresh installs when 8.04 arrives as I have some issues with Gutsy.

I do understand the reasoning and accept you can do little about Canonical's decision but STILL think that KDE3 should be the base and KDE4 the option for Kubuntu 8.04 and future releases until KDE4 is reasonably stable.

Do I get you right that you can not choose KDE3 in 8.04 when doing a fresh install but only with upgrades from 7.10? That sounds bad as the upgrades fairly often go wrong and even more so for me who has to live with a slow and somewhat unreliable "broadband"-connection.

Last I heard, Fedora was the experimental bleeding edge distro, and [K]ubuntu was meant to be a stable, reliable OS. That's why my daily driver is running Kubuntu. If Kubuntu starts including incomplete, unstable, and bug-ridden software that even the developers say is not fit for everyday use, then I'm afraid that the distro has lost it's focus with it's eyes on all the glitter of "new". That same glitter in eyes syndrome is what causes people to 'upgrade' to Vista and other fatal mistakes. I don't want to start throwing mud, but the decision to use KDE 4.0 is ridiculous and irresponsible.

That said, I just went out to the kubuntu.com website to see where the "mission statement" or "direction" was written. I found this on the "About Kubuntu" page:
"Kubuntu uses the solid base of Ubuntu plus the latest KDE."
Well, I guess that settles it. As bad as the decision to use the not-production-ready KDE 4.0, that decision seems to be out of Canonical's hands, and in the KDE dev's hands as Canonical clearly states that they want "the latest KDE" and not "the best KDE". I find that letting your upstream providers dictate what your final configuration will be to be a bad business decision (like MS does to HP and most other prebuilt systems manufacturers). That policy must be changed before Kubuntu can ship with proven, reliable software.

"Canonical clearly states..." < Canonical stated nothing, that's the Kubuntu statement, not Canonical.
"I find that letting your upstream providers dictate what your final configuration will be..." < Upstream always dictates what you have in the end, they are upstream after all and they make the code.

The point of this post is to say: This discussion is pointless, Kubuntu won't be LTS, it will have a KDE 4 install CD and it will be KDE 3 via upgrades.

> Upstream always dictates what you have in the end, they are upstream after
> all and they make the code.

Not true, Kubuntu could ship with KDE 1.4 should they want to.

> This discussion is pointless,

The discussion as to what will be the default UI is far from pointless, in fact, I'd say that it is the most important discussion that could be made. If it's pointless, then obviously there would be no need for Kubuntu to even exist, as people could use the Gnome UI.

> Kubuntu won't be LTS, it will have a KDE 4 install CD and it will be KDE 3 via upgrades.

Yes, I've realized that. That is why I'll have to find a new distro for my users. I replace Windows XP (usually cracked) on about three or four machines a month for other students in my university. As Kubuntu is their first impression of Linux, I must ensure that it is a good impression. I'll probably stick with Feisty until I land a new distro, though.

I guess since its obvious users aren't important here, so I guess I too will find a new distro. I guess I'll have to learn Gnome, that seems to be where more and more distros are headed anyway. Now I know why.

Its absolutely ludicrous to move Kubuntu to KDE 4 knowing that everyone who used it thinks its pretty, is the start of something great, but it is NOT ready for prime time. If Canonical wants to kill off Kubuntu they found a great way to do it. Give them a desktop that is unusable, unconfigurable, and unstable. The whole idea that 3.5.x will not be supportable is a lie, as many others have said. If you actually believe that argument then NO kernel will be supportable, and no other Linux software as fast as development happens. The whole Idea of a Linux distro lasting 2 years is a joke by that standard. If Canonical wants to pretend to want to get into the Data Center or on Corporate Desktops they have to quit trying to fool people who know better. They might also quit treating KDE or whatever other desktop as a ugly stepchild, and just kill it if they don't want it.

I think Debian will be my destination of choice, maybe Sidux, or some other Debian derivative.

Oh, and this "upstream dictates" thing is crap and you know it. Debian is upstream to Ubuntu, and yet Ubuntu ships Firefox, not "ice weasel". Why is that if Upstream dictates? Upstream and downstream are just ways to describe a relationship not a dictatorship.

quote: "The point of this post is to say: This discussion is pointless, Kubuntu won't be LTS, it will have a KDE 4 install CD and it will be KDE 3 via upgrades."

As you see from other comments and in other discussions the it is not pointless to the users. The LTS thing is accepted, putting KDE4 instead of KDE3 as base is not. We are far from the only users that feel this way and I would hope the developers would be able to listen.

Why not have the option of desktop in the installer. It could be worded like this:
1) Stable System: based upon current generation KDE technology.
2) Advanced System:based upon next generation KDE technology.

I insist that the 3.x branch of KDE is the current generation, especially at stated by KDE developers at http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3174 I quote:
"""KDE 4.0 is only expected to be used by early adopters, not every KDE 3.5 user."""

The KDE devs even makes specific reference to the decision to use KDE 4.0 as a bad decision.

Please read:

http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~jpatrick/minutes/kubuntu-meeting-20071222.pdf

There will be:

1) A Kubuntu Hardy KDE 4 CD (seed in progress)
2) A Kubuntu Hardy KDE 3 CD (based on kubuntu-desktop seed)

Take your pick from the website.

An excellent solution that I can live with. Thank you for sharing that.